When we are young, we occasionally see something that makes an impression and puts down roots in our brains. One such experience happened to me when I was a brand new deacon.
I was sitting with my father in the chapel as Priesthood opening exercises began. The opening song and prayer were over, and the Bishop was going over some announcements. There was a question about the Stake softball schedule, so the Bishop called on Brother “Hansen,” who was the Stake Athletic Director. Brother Hansen was sitting in the pew across from us. I knew him to be a kindly older gentleman.
The Bishop asked, “Brother Hansen, do you know when the next softball game is?”
Brother Hansen just sat there.
The Bishop asked again, “Brother Hansen?”
No response. But Brother Hansen had his eyes fixed on the Bishop and was smiling. Weird.
Finally, the brother in the pew behind him reached up and tapped him on the shoulder and pointed at the Bishop. Brother Hansen looked panicked as he reached up to his ears, and then spoke up.
“Sorry, Bishop! Sometimes I just turn these old hearing aids off when I’m at church.”
Everyone laughed as the Bishop re-asked the question, which Brother Hansen quickly answered, and the meeting moved on.
But what stuck in my mind was that Brother Hansen actually made it a practice to turn off his hearing aids during church, and was blissfully unaware of what was going on around him – and he admitted it!
That memory stuck.
Quick change of directions…
I have been teaching some sort of church class for over half of my adult life – whether it be Gospel Doctrine, youth Sunday School, Priesthood, etc. I have also attended such classes all my life. Essentially, I am just like you: Depending on our given callings, we are either teacher or student all our lives.
As teachers, all of us have seen a “Brother Hansen,” who completely checks out. This is also manifest by just flat-out sleeping. (Early-morning seminary teachers see this more than most.)
As students, we have all had out moments where we have been “Brother Hansen,” and have literally, or figuratively turned off our hearing aids and checked out during a class or meeting.
A relative to “Brother Checked-out,” is “Sister Chatterbox.” You know her. She is the one that sits on the back row of Relief Society and whispers with other chatterboxes the entire meeting. Oh, and before the cries of sexism are raised, I can assure you that we brethren do it, too. If we are awake.
As teachers, we have all had to deal with a Chatterbox. As students we have all been one. (At least I have.)
The Checked-out does little to disturb, but the Chatterbox can completely disrupt the flow of the class, especially when they think they are carrying a hushed conversation with such stealth, such finesse, that nobody else is aware. They are wrong. Everybody notices.
This isn’t anything new – Joseph Smith mentioned struggles with the same problem in early Church councils.
“but in our councils, generally, one will be uneasy, another asleep; one praying, another not; one’s mind on the business of the council, and another thinking on something else. [HC 2:25–26]” (Link)
No doubt the Lord knew about our tendencies to do this when he revealed to Joseph Smith,
“Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.” (D&C 88:122)
Yep. The Lord saw it coming, and gave very clear counsel that one person is the teacher, and everyone is supposed to take turns speaking. What a concept!
What happens when people don’t follow this simple counsel? Chaos.
There is a new, 21st Century version of this which I would like to call “Silent Chaos.” I have participated in this modern-day version of being a silent-chatterbox. Yes, me and my iPad have, on occasion, had interesting conversations while someone else was talking. I admit, I have checked Facebook in High Priest group meeting. I have responded to blog comments in Gospel Doctrine. (I am really good at refraining during sacrament meeting.) I have actually seen people reading my blog during Sunday School. (I’m proudly bothered by that one.)
And I have mentally, “checked out” during classes and meetings before. Yes, Brother Hansen and Sister Chatterbox have nothing on me. While I do not know this for sure, there is a remote possibility that you have been there, too. But for the sake of avoiding the inevitable cries of “you are being soooo judgmental,” I will refer to myself in relation to these shortcomings, so you can keep your dander down – I’m obviously not talking about you.
So, why am I part of the problem?
As a teacher, I try and figure out why it is that some students feel the need to visit with their friends, either with hushed voices, or with technology, while I am trying to teach. It can be frustrating and discouraging.
As a student, I ask myself why I sometimes I fill one of these roles. Is it because…
• I am rude and don’t have good manners? Partly.
• I don’t have any self-discipline? The “Natural Man” does win more battles than I would like to admit.
• I am ignorant of what is expected of me? Not at all.
• I don’t care about the other people in the class. Ouch – perhaps?
• Am I apathetic? No – I do care. Hmpf. Of Course I care.
The more I think about it, the more I have decided that it boils down to a simple thing – In the absence of psychological disorders, the reason we (oopsI I check-out, or converse through a class is this:
We are self-absorbed. Narcissistic. (Sorry – slipped into “we” mode.)
The reason we do these things is because I – at the moment – believe that what we have to say to each other, or what we want to do, or what we want to think about is more important than what the person up front – who has been called and set apart to teach us – has to offer.
Can you think of another reason? I can’t.
Elder Richard G. Scott said something that I think is applicable:
“Humility is essential to the acquiring of spiritual knowledge. To be humble is to be teachable. Humility permits you to be tutored by the Spirit and to be taught from sources inspired by the Lord, such as the scriptures.” (Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge)
Did you notice that word “teachable?” By “checking-out,” or being a “chatterbox,” am I missing out on opportunities to be taught by the Spirit, or the Lord’s servants?
Yes.
Can I afford to miss those opportunities?
And to make matters worse, I might even be denying the person next to me that opportunity by distracting them. Great. Not only do I lack humility – now I lack charity as well.
I will be going to my meetings in a few hours. When I get there, I have two options:
• I can visit with my friends in hushed tones, play with my phone or iPad, or turn off my “hearing aids,” and just zone out.
or…
• I can reverently try and learn, feel the Spirit, be teachable, and sustain those who are called to teach me.
Good talk on the subject of D&C 88:122: “That All May Be Edified,” Elder Jay E. Jensen.
Great comments. I so agree that there is the need to socialize! When I see the sisters in our RS room conversing it warms my heart. And ya know, whispering in the back of the room wouldn’t be so distracting, but those who are loud and disrespectful when a teacher is trying to teach? That’s just not nice.
As you can see, I am behind a day, but love this post. Having been a teacher more of my active adult life in the church than not….. This all rang true to me. And yes, I agree with the “why” it happens.
Since all of us are guilty at some point, it’s one of those things we acknowledge is a struggle, encourage each other to be better and move forward trying our hardest to overcome the natural man.
Thanks for the post friend
Funny I was just thinking about this last week, but from the teacher perspective. It really bothers me (as RS Pres.) how hard it is for some women to keep quiet during a lesson. It makes me want to just stand there and stop teaching until they all close their mouths. But then I thought about how the Spirit teaches us. We know how many times we are distracted or tuned out, but God doesn’t give up on teaching us. Sometimes a prompting has to come over and over again until we finally listen. It is kind of wonderful to know that no matter how inconsiderate or indifferent to the Spirit we can be, it’s still always there when we are ready. The unfortunate part is the times that I listen too late and miss something that should have been absorbed or an opportunity to serve. So I figure if God is patient with us when we are not paying attention to Him, I can be patient with class members, too. What they miss is on them. Man, sometimes this stuff is so hard to figure out!
I agree it’s got to be such a frustration!
This is 100% not an excuse for women to not listen, but we are leading some seriously isolated and lonely lives as mothers now. If we’re stay at home moms we are up to our necks in tiny bodily secretions and NEVER get to talk to another adult. It’s. So. Lonely! I had no idea how lonely parenthood would be. If we work we’re up to our eyes in tiny bodily secretions and desperately attempting to keep our homes pulled together. Back in the day women got together and quilted or had homemaking meeting where they could talk and form the network of love and support that’s so critical in keeping body and soul together during this very intense stage of life. RS is the ONLY time some women have of adult interaction. Again, NOT an excuse, but I truly feel is a contributing factor into the impulse to finally get to talk in complete sentences with grown up words. They may have finally found someone navigating similar parenthood waters and desperately seeking counsel or validation that she’s doing ok. We women are desperate for the supportive network we no longer have. Again, totally not an excuse.
It is an excuse – just not a very good one. 😉
Hmm–MMM, I disagree with you. Never been a young mom with no social life? Oh, I thought not. I agree with MM. It does contribute and the fact that people are chatting is such a great sign that your RS is a happy, welcoming place where people know each other. When i was a RS president, I would gauge the chatting and on Sundays when the talking was more in evidence, I would postpone starting the meeting for a few minutes longer than normal. Women need each other in a serious way and there are so few opportunities to build relationships with the current system of fewer RS activities and the three hour block. If we don’t have the relationships than we don’t feel comfortable asking each other for help and that is where really serious problems can develop. Now–chatting before the meeting starts and constantly chattering are two different things, but sometimes a private conversation is exactly what you need to sustain you during another exhausting week with the babies.
If it were THAT important, another venue could/would be found. Maybe one day they will invent some sort of electronic communication where people could talk to each other from their own homes or cars. (Having no social life is a choice.)
And I have been a very actively involved father in raising 5 kids, so don’t play the “poor mom” card – it doesn’t fly.
My very actively involved husband to our 6 kids (I’ve been blessed to marry way up and have no idea why the Lord saw fit to allow such a blessing, but our kids benefit from an amazing dad) never saw the stay at home freight train coming at him…till it hit fast and furious during the recent economic crash. Thank goodness wifey had sufficient earning power, she hadn’t been utilizing much while raising kids, to keep the mortgage and bills paid. He was at home raising kids all alone all day. He found great support, comfort, and comrade from his one friend in the same situation. He’s been able to get back to work and I’m on my own again, but I’ve got one empathetic husband now. It takes some serious fortitude to say, “Wife, I had no idea what a brutal experience you’ve been navigating alone. I now get your need for interpersonal relationships with people in the same boat. I didn’t get it at all, and I’m sorry for underestimating the strain all of this is. Every father needs to spend at least a year at home trying to do this so they aren’t such jerks.” I already loved him with every fiber of my being, but at that moment the love grew 10 fold. His calling wasn’t Bishop, but attended all the meetings and became quite the advocate for any activities that would allow the women to get together and have an opportunity to talk and draw strength from the wisdom and experience others who had/have been there had to offer. I happened to hit the husband jack pot, many women aren’t that lucky and are truly on their own.
The trenches are brutal and connecting on social media will never ever be the same as a real life, deeply personal friendship built over time, on a face to face basis. And we keep being told to cut back on the social media time…as I sit here on social media.
There will never be any kind of program change unless large portions of the policy makers end up in my hubby’s situation to realize the very real need bring left unmet.
Talking through a lesson is still not ok. The need to not feel alone will not go away without program changes so whispering will probably continue. And the people with the power to make those changes will continue to see no need. The cycle will continue, or worsen, with the next young drowning generation.
Thanks for your comment – You said, “talking through a lesson is still not ok.” and that was the point i was trying to reinforce.
Being a stay at home mom and being an involved dad are not the same thing. This is exactly why ward councils are problematic. There are those who minimize what women face and think women should feel and process things how men feel and process things. Instead–how about saying, “That is how women feel, and I don’t get it, but I won’t assume they are wrong because how they feel is valid and important.” I didn’t say it was okay to constantly chatter through a lesson. I said that sometimes the human connections you make in church are more important than the lesson. I still stand by that. As a woman with a ton of leadership experience in the RS and a mother of 8, I am deeply concerned when a man says something like pull the “poor mom card” because it shows a true lack of understanding and compassion. Moms have specific problems and challenges and we’re allowed to discuss them in relation to other issues–like reverence in church–without being made to feel lesser.
You are fighting against an imagined enemy. My understanding of what mothers go through does not come from being a father, but from being married to one for 28 years. I do not disagree with the hardships that mothers can face, nor am I minimizing them. My point in this post is that it is not a legitimate excuse for being rude. Pulling the “mom card” was in reference to bringing in an unrelated argument about motherhood to rationalize irreverence.
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t presume to tell you what you should say…
Oh wow! So perfect for me today. I have an 11 yr. old Primary class. Over the years I’ve had some real problems but this year takes the cake. I have a chatterbox girl who is more talkative than any kid I’ve ever had. She is very smart so I’ve got to figure out a tactful way to pass on some of your thoughts. It’s interesting because she is home schooled and while I think that’s a great thing, I can tell she never had to learn to “shut up” while the public school kids did.
If she was just a curious kid interested in everything around her, I’d be less critical. It just seems like she must be stage center always. (This is from a politician who likes to talk and is usually tolerant of this!)
I had this happen to me today while teaching YW. I asked one specific girl a question and she admitted that she wasn’t listening so I repeated the question; another applauded her for admitting she wasn’t listening. Then later a couple of the girls were scrolling through their phones (we weren’t reading a scripture at the moment) while I was talking. It irritated me but I don’t know what to do about it. I’ve been the checked out student before but I also feel it’s my job to teach them to be better. I’m tempted to implement a non-technology scripture policy.
Megan, I am in the YW presidency in my ward. We implemented a no technology policy for a few months but ultimately decided that it was better to teach them to use their technology correctly. We certainly don’t have it all mastered but here are a couple of things we have done that have helped: on a Weds. Night activity, we did a fun but informative in service on teaching and learning…ways for the YW to improve their teaching when they teach as well as ways for them to be better learners, participate more, etc. I think it has helped…although I am sure they will continue to need more reminders and training. Also, we were having a problem with reverence so we began an opening exercise on an activity where the leaders acted like the girls some times do…we talked, we didn’t start on time, we took selfies, played with each other’s hair…things we have seen girls do. The girls were confused and clearly uncomfortable (and frankly so was I). But then we stopped and talked about how they were feeling and how the spirit wasn’t there. We read a quote by Elder L. Tom Perry: “I want to speak to you today about reverence. While I believe that reverence is often exhibited through reverent behaviors, it is not behaviors that concern me now. I want to discuss reverence as an attitude—an attitude of deepest respect and veneration toward Deity. Of course, reverent behaviors follow reverent attitudes, but it is the attitude of reverence that we need to cultivate first among our members. Reverent behaviors without reverent attitudes are empty of meaning because they are performed for the praises of men, not God.”
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/10/serve-god-acceptably-with-reverence-and-godly-fear?lang=eng
We also shared this quote by Elder Boyd K. Packer who said, “Irreverence suits the purposes of the adversary by obstructing the delicate channels of revelation in both mind and spirit.” He promised these blessings if we are reverent: “While we may not see an immediate, miraculous transformation, as surely as the Lord lives, a quiet one will take place. The spiritual power in the lives of each member and in the Church will increase. The Lord will pour out his Spirit upon us more abundantly. We will be less troubled, less confused. We will find revealed answers to personal and family problems without all the counseling which we seem now to need.”
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/reverence-invites-revelation?lang=eng
It has been nearly two months and the reverence and participation in our YW has improved greatly…and we have been sure to notice and thank them.
Love these ideas!
I remember after Elder Scott’s talk that you mentioned, I made myself a promise that the moment I started “checking out” in a class, I’d immediately try to make a comment. It’s been a great thing for me. I immediately start paying attention so my comment doesn’t sound stupid, and then after I’ve commented, I’m invested, and next thing I know… Class is over!
Been there done that on both sides of the equation at one time or another. When talking to others about the issue I love the “I was listening but I was just multi tasking” response. I was sure that multi tasking was just a spiritual gift that many of us have missed out on. Sadly what we as long term members at times pass off as “culture” or “tradition” newer converts and investigators find to be disrespectful and quite off putting when they are trying to learn new truths that we feel we already have a handle on.
Subtle correction through gentle humour works for me! Thanks for the gentle reminder
Oh the irony that I am sitting here in our 5th Sunday PH/RS meeting and happened to read your blog…
Ouch.
Guess I’m working on Good, Better, Best today. 🙂
Great response!
I absolutely hate sitting next to a chatter-er-er-er. I don’t talk to my neighbor during a lesson. Mostly because I don’t want to be talked back too. It’s rude! Especially those who sit behind me and talk through the lesson. Fortunately, I know who the talkers are and who are not the talkers. So I never sit by several people. It’s the easy way out.
There are times I have been both chatter-box and checked-out at church. Sometimes it’s because I don’t want to have to think deeply and learn, I just want to think of fluffy things. Self absorbed and lazy at times I guess.
I did have an immediate thought about Brother Hansen though. I know my Mom sometimes turns her hearing aids off in groups because it picks up every little noise and becomes very distracting and “hard to hear” with them on. Maybe he was just trying to feel the spirit and not listen to all the chatter-boxes around him.
Love your blog! I really loved the “18 Is Not the New 19”. I referred several people to that specific topic.
I definitely agree with the comment about the hearing aids. Sometimes, and thankfully this appears to be lessening as the technology gets better and better, it’s just TOO MUCH hearing EVERYTHING amplified to the ‘nth’ degree.
Back to the original post. I currently have the exact opposite problem as Brother Hansen. I have worn a hearing aid (and now need 2) since I was 5 years old. Right now, though, my family is in a position where we cannot afford for me to buy new hearing aids, and I feel like I miss a TONNE of what’s going on around me. So yes, I may often seem like the ‘checked out’ one in a class, especially if the teacher has a naturally quiet voice, or if people are making comments, and I can’t read their lips. I desperately WANT to be able to participate and learn, but it’s just not possible for me all the time at the moment. Thankfully, Sacrament Meeting is usually just fine. Hooray for microphones! 🙂
Our ward has a lot of older members, so each and every class is equipped with clip-on microphones for the teachers. Now if they would only clip the mic high up enough on themselves to actually be effective!
My Primary sharing time today is on reverence. Our current situation is chaos and it is so sad! As parents, we need to teach our children respect for others. We are working hard in our callings as a Primary Presidency to be able to feel the Spirit in Primary, and it’s really difficult when there is “chaos.” Thank you for this post! Of course, I am guilty at times of just what you are saying, but I am hoping to recognize and be teachable much more than checking out!
I’m right there with you! I was about ready to lose it today, and my class is 9-year-olds. We’re not even in junior primary!
This is great! It really spoke to me today. It just built upon an awesome Women’s Conference our stake had yesterday.
I’ve been there on all accounts too, but it reminded me of times when I may have seemed distracted but wasn’t. From Spencer Kimball, “What he was really teaching, brothers and sisters, is about another meeting. If you’re just in this meeting with me—this one we physically see—you’re not in the meeting yet. The real meeting is the meeting between you and the Lord. And if you want to really get in the meeting and have the Lord work upon your heart, that will be up to you.”
He goes further, but another by Henry B. Eyring, “What you do in the classes you attend, and even what you do in this devotional, can build your foundation more solidly on truth. Just try two things: listen for the whisperings of the Spirit and then commit to obey. You’ve noticed in this meeting that from time to time your mind wandered away from what I was saying. God will take advantage of that wandering if you let Him… In this hour you may have committed to act on something you felt was true. Then more truth came to you.”
Just adding another angle. I love it when I’m in that “other meeting” too. I remember being in a Sunday School class on personal wild scripture chase because of what the spirit was teaching me, but the teacher, if he noticed me, might have thought I was just distracted.
Good point. Except when that “distraction” is checking football scores.
There are definitely times when you can tell another person is distracted…being the chatterbox or the quiet friend but not soaking in the lesson…but most of the time, we don’t know whether the spirit is teaching another individual or not…which is why I appreciate tht you primarily used the pronoun I. We can’t necessarily tell why someone else is doing what they are doing but we can evaluate our own behavior. This is clearl something the leaders are concerned about…I just read an article on lds.org a couple of days ago about if you are bored in Sunday School, then participate and ideas of how to do that.
Absolutely. I don’t think He would use that wandering. 🙂
For some of us we learned in Primary that it is OK because some feel it is more important that a child feel welcome than it is to expect them to show respect to those at the front teaching or leading.
They are not mutually exclusive.
I agree, they are not mutually exclusive. When I taught the Valiant 9’s years ago, I had some very busy and noisy boys in my class. After a couple of “It’s my turn to talk, I want to hear what you have to say, but right now……your job is to listen.” I just looked at whoever was making the most noise and said, ” Go sit outside and come back in when you know you are ready to listen.” To this day,I love those now all grown up kids, that were in my class, and they know to this day that I love them.
Definitely not mutually exclusive! We have one we are fervently praying for guidance on how to raise in a way to stay active and build an enduring testimony. It’s hard when kids have kinks that aren’t readily obvious to outsiders. Church HAS to be a safe place for him or he’ll flick his nose at it and be gone someday. We have very strict expectations of reverence and controlling one’s body while at church, BUT he’s still a kid learning exactly how to do that and what true reverence looks like. A very MEAN lady (I’m even terrified of her!) absolutely obliterated him in Primary a couple weeks ago. Then kept looking over at him to swoop in and strike again. She was completely out of line since she wasn’t his teacher, Primary presidency, or parent. She had zero stewardship over him. He did great at holding himself together till Primary ended, but I can assure you he learned nothing and was completely closed to feeling the Spirit after that. His tics exploded in rapid succession as she drove him the edge of his abilites. He did not feel welcomed in the one place he was supposed to be. The entire ward knows how strict we are, and that catching us and letting us know about trouble, yields consequences and improved behavior. A little grace being extended by those with “more life experience” isn’t too much to ask as we try to channel these kids, with kinks, into productive adult members of the church.
*I AM troubled by the number of parents that use diagnoses as an excuse for bad behavior. It makes our job trying to help ours overcome the load of diagnoses they have even harder because everyone assumes we’re one of those parents when we request a smidge of grace while we work through the struggle of the moment.